tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post1247733000677711168..comments2023-03-21T05:49:21.694-04:00Comments on Seeking Avalon: Recognition, Codes & Box Office DrawAvalon's Willowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-47381584672991582742010-03-12T01:22:36.850-05:002010-03-12T01:22:36.850-05:00Ah. That's my sigh of relief. I'm SO glad ...Ah. That's my sigh of relief. I'm SO glad that I clumsily stumbled across this post, albeit so late. The whole post is wonderfully argued but my favourite part is this:<br /><br />"Whatever term they have for it, Hollywood knows all about Recognition Glee & Recognition Rejection. And they've been pointing at Recognition Rejection for years when it comes to heroes and leads of colour - except the place they point to keeps changing."<br /><br />Exactly. They know *exactly* what it is but they've come to the conclusion that 'some' people's desire - or as they see it "right" to experience Recognition Glee trumps anyone else's. At one stage I used to think that they failed to acknowledge, let alone permit anyone else's desire/need or pleasure in Recognition Glee because they had yet to figure out that they weren't the only people who were audiences to books, films, games, comics etc., or perhaps didn't actually realise that PoC were people in the first place.<br /><br />But now I see that attributing it to blindness/cluelessness was to flatter them. After all, White Recognition Glee is deliciously tangled up with, is inextricable from and is utterly dependent upon PoCs Recognition Rejection, the latter of which is usually voiced or internalised in the form of: "Not this tired stereotype/shit again." "I can't bear to read/watch this any longer" "This is embarrassing/insulting/enraging/heartbreaking" "WTF?" "Is this some kind of joke?/Tell me this is a deliberate or at least ill-conceived satire" "Is this what we're supposed to be/who we are?" "Hell no!" and so on.<br /><br />And yet the very things that provoke this reaction seem to be a source of white pleasure and reassure.<br /><br />It seems that what pains and embarrasses us isn't merely an incidental, coincidental or unfortunate 'side-effect' of their narratives but is actually the fundamental pillar to their pleasure, is an necessary part of their indulgent identity construction exercises on-screen that masquerade as 'stories'; what injures us, actually enables and bolsters their precious 'Recognition Glee'. <br /><br />As a result, Hollywood films have to remain a site of white Recognition Glee - not because of dollars and cents (as the old lie goes) but because of all the important cultural work that these films perform in egregiously fostering and bolstering white notions of self. (All those safe white havens, and all white universes; all that sparkling white personhood and humanity that lies in stark contrast to non-white, non-human human props and backdrops; all of that solipsistic, self-involved white angst and drama that never sees anything or anyONE beyond itself.)<br /><br />Without it, they wouldn't know who (or where) they were. Wouldn't know what to do without it or how to enjoy themselves in its absence. And since this is your space I'm not even going to get started on how insulting I find the concept of 'relatability' where readers/viewers bleat on about "identifying with the protagonist" all the time - all of which is a thin veil for yet more white privilege.<br /><br />But... Excellent, thought-provoking post and a great analysis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-78149056376687651112010-02-21T15:32:11.483-05:002010-02-21T15:32:11.483-05:00@ Mana G
Looking up something else I came across ...<strong>@ Mana G</strong><br /><br />Looking up something else I came across <a href="http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/08/unholy-possum-chicken.html" rel="nofollow">my c/p of an interview with Shylaman</a> and it clicked with thoughts I've been having since the extended trailer that Shylaman's movie may be <em>called</em> the THE LAST AIRBENDER, but his focus is all on Zuko bringing balance, ala Luke and Anakin with the Force in Star Wars.<br /><br />I strongly believe General Iroh is meant to be Zuko's Obi-wan and <strong>not</strong> a wild man. But if I hear the wild man bad ass does happen, then it really will confirm that Shylaman did not read any of Bryke's notes, or the A:TLA Series Bible or watch much episodes at all.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-49173552301378235982010-02-19T17:50:16.691-05:002010-02-19T17:50:16.691-05:00I must admit, that when I was thinking about the w...I must admit, that when I was thinking about the whole thing with Live Action Iroh's hair, I wasn't thinking about M. Night Shamaylan's "Star Wars with Asian spiritual overtones." I was thinking about the, "If you're Korean, wear a kimono, not a hanbok, whatever it's all Asian" casting call. I assumed that someone in costuming, or a producer, or even Shamaylan himself, thought that giving Iroh Jata would be shorthand for "badass," at least to white, American audiences. I have heard, time and again, (from studies that don't have too much basis in reality), that Hollywood movies "do best" whenever they cater to a white, American, male perspective. I will admit that I assumed that that was the perspective the costume choice was speaking to, and from that perspective, Iroh's hair would most certainly mean "badass." <br />However, I shouldn't have made that assumption, because, as you pointed out, it's shorthand for the "wild man" stereotypes, as well, and I really don't believe they'd end up making Iroh into a "wild man." I obviously should have considered M Night Shamaylan's heritage, but I guess I just wasn't holding out that much hope for a film that turns the writing that was initially Chinese characters into gibberish and whitewashes the cast.Mana Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04007963229816791984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-49900959861241153992010-02-19T15:41:51.463-05:002010-02-19T15:41:51.463-05:00@ Mana G
My basis for thinking the Live Action Mo...<strong>@ Mana G</strong><br /><br />My basis for thinking the Live Action Movie! Iroh had Jata is/was purely based on the fact that M. Night Shylaman has South Asian heritage and he tends to exert control over even the costuming of his movies as important details <em>and</em> the fact he's been describing his version of Aang's universe, The Last Airbender , as a chance for him to do his version of Star Wars (or something similarly epic) but involving obvious Asian spiritual overtones.<br /><br />I <em>didn't</em> consider the American (with heavy racial overtones) pov; that is, exactly what an <em>American</em> would Recognize. And yes, with Ronon Dex and Tyr Anasazi in recent pop culture memory then white Recognotion Glee likely would be connecting dots to 'bad ass heavy'.<br /><br />And I do not doubt you're right and the lesson about agism and size-ism (thank you for the term! It is the one I was looking for!) won't even peek in the Live Action Movie. Worse, Ronon Dex and Tyr Anasazi were <em>wild man</em> stereotypes in the end. Iroh as the wild man type is so absolutely the opposite of the caring father figure (whom Zuko rejected at first before realizing his folly).Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-65036588301035167732010-02-19T12:35:37.734-05:002010-02-19T12:35:37.734-05:00Sorry, I should have looked up what the hair actua...Sorry, I should have looked up what the hair actually WAS, instead of just calling it "dreadlocks." (Although, I'm not sure I'd even give the people involved in this film the benefit of the doubt that they actually knew/cared about there being a difference.) I think my mind was calling back to characters like Ronon from Stargate: Atlantis, (racism, ahoy!), and other such characters with hair that was at least similar to dreadlocks or Jata when I saw this Iroh. (Again, I must admit that I refuse to believe most people in Hollywood actually think that hard about the cultural meanings of the hairstyles they choose for a character, and only want them to have "weird" "ethnic" or "cool-looking" hair, as they see it.) Generally, these characters seem to be the "heavies." (Though there does certainly seem to be the occasional "wise man" thrown in.) Therefore, I did assume that his hair was meant to be Hollywood shorthand for "badass." That, and the fact the actor appears to be younger and trimmer. <br />I do think the creators of the animated series were trying to invoke, (and play with), ageism and, possibly, also size-ism, (is that what they call it?), in having Iroh as this fat, old man. Lots of shows will have the silly/fat old grandfather character suddenly display unexpected wisdom and physical strength, but it's generally meant to be something of a gag or a surprise twist. I thought Airbender was different in this regard, in that, as you said, they invoke the trope, and then use it to teach the audience not to prejudge the character. The difference, to me, is that Iroh, while occasionally able to be very silly, was always presented as a man with intelligence and dignity, whereas the other "silly fat grandpa" characters are not. Again, in other shows, the audience is meant to sympathize with the younger, stronger character that rolls his eyes at his "crazy, fat, old grandpa" figure, but I never got that impression in Airbender.I always got the impression that we were supposed to find Zuko's first season treatment of Iroh to be often deplorably disrespectful and unkind, but perhaps that's just the way I read into it. <br />Anyway, what I was trying to say is that, the film, by taking away the fat, older, tea-loving Iroh, and giving the audience this younger, trimmer, probably-going-to-have-little-to-no-sense-of-humor, Iroh, they have taken away that lesson. Even more than the fact that I don't even physically recognize the characters, I think I'm feeling "Recognition Rejection" because I can't seem to recognize these characters by their personalities, either. I know it was just a trailer, but so far the whole damn thing has just reminded me so much of "The Ember Island Players." (Especially Katara. Note M. Night Shamaylan: That episode was meant to be a JOKE. Not a guideline.)Mana Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04007963229816791984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-86858832859944974372010-02-18T18:51:06.220-05:002010-02-18T18:51:06.220-05:00@ Avalon's Willow
Thank you! The Recognition ...@ Avalon's Willow<br /><br />Thank you! The Recognition Rejection is totally what I was experiencing when I saw the trailer! Enough elements to get who people were (for the most part), but those same elements made things seem even more out of place. I showed it to my mom who hasn't really seen the show other then some stills of the animated characters and she thought that the "white people in the parkas look rather odd." She couldn't connect animate Iroh to live action Iroh and the over all differences just made the two things seem totally disconnected. <br /><br />And I must admit, I miss seeing an older, heavier Iroh. The wonderful thing about him was that he was so slick about it. He played up being the doddering old man, but when he needed to be the force he could be, it was just awesome. It's why he became my favorite character early on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-23090594679638127002010-02-18T16:46:46.525-05:002010-02-18T16:46:46.525-05:00Correction: Mana G
The inherent agism being invok...Correction: Mana G<br /><br />The inherent agism being <em>invoked</em> with Iroh's animated appearance - from which we as viewers are then schooled in not having prejudgements?Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-71901749154914742472010-02-18T16:43:47.020-05:002010-02-18T16:43:47.020-05:00PS: @Mana G
Also am I to understand that locks = ...PS: @Mana G<br /><br />Also am I to understand that locks = badass? Because I do not think the Live Action Iroh looks particularly badass cast and costumed as he is. <br /><br />And I wonder at the possible racist underpinnings that would suggest that locks = bad assness. Which is not me calling <em>you</em> racist. But me wondering at what you've been exposed to that reinforced the idea that individuals with locked hair are the bad ass or big heavies in a movie / of a group, etc...<br /><br />It never occurred to me at all that that was why Iroh had been given possible Jata. I thought it was to suggest him as a holy man; more enlightened.<br /><br />Are you also referring to the inherent agism and (would ablism be the right term - even though being heavy is treated as a disability in American society, it <em>isn't</em> one) in Iroh's original presentation as older, seasoned but past his prime? Whereas the movie version looks much younger than animated Iroh?<br /><br />Because further racism in the imagery being presented in the Live Action Movie: The Last Airbender is even more stomach churningly disgusting and disappointing.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-36732676442623627352010-02-18T16:33:37.684-05:002010-02-18T16:33:37.684-05:00@Mana G
It is likely that for you Recognition Rej...<strong>@Mana G</strong><br /><br />It is likely that for you <strong>Recognition Rejection</strong> is going on a lot stronger than <strong>Recognition Glee</strong>. Which is something I also experienced. But as I said above: those characters are <em>'our'</em> characters too. <em>Our</em> as in fans of the original series; <em>our</em> as in the hopes of fans of the original series to see them on the big screen.<br /><br />I know who the individual with the <em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sadhus.jpg" title="Link to image" rel="nofollow">Jata</a></em> is supposed to be. (Note: Even though they look more twirled and curly than locked or matted. And even though they are NOT <em><strong>dread</strong>locks</em> which is a very specific term).<br /><br />I know the person with the reddish skin wound on one side of his face is supposed to be Zuko. I also know the bald headed child is supposed to be Aang. <br /><br />I <em>Recognize</em> them enough to <em>Reject</em> them. Which is something I've seen others say they now <em>can</em> do since reading the essay and being able to put a name to their feelings.<br /><br />But I understand a whole lot better now at how someone's unconscious mind could be tapped <em>just by knowing who everyone in the trailers is <strong>supposed</strong> to be</em>. That is the power of Recognition.<br /><br />I fully admit, however, that the power of Recognition has also NOT worked a lot with some fans; fans who did not keep up with up-to-date news about behind the scenes goings on with the Live Action Movie. In comments at Racebending@LJ for example, there were a few series' fans who had NO IDEA who some individuals in the trailers were to even <em>feel</em> any Rejection, or disappointment, because <em>they couldn't recognize them AT ALL</em>.<br /><br /><strong>[[[</strong> "That was supposed to be Zhao? That was supposed to be Yue?" <strong>]]]</strong><br /><br />That has to be a definite downside in trying to play the odds with Recognition <em>and</em> try to spin a pre-created universe into your own thing, ala Shylaman's writing/directing/producing.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-15964749416431951422010-02-18T15:46:03.144-05:002010-02-18T15:46:03.144-05:00I'm having a hard time imagining any Airbender...I'm having a hard time imagining any Airbender fans having "Recognition Glee" from watching the trailers...Because I don't recognize ANY of those people! I kept finding myself thinking, "Who is that girl that keeps cringing and clinging to Sokka? It can't be Katara, because not ONCE in the trailer is she seen Waterbending." (Not necessarily meaning she won't in the film, but, since the "action girls" were such an important part of the cartoon, you'd think they'd show that Katara is still an "action girl.") I also thought things like, "Who is that trim man with the dreadlocks? Wasn't the whole point of Iroh, initially, the fact that he DOESN'T look badass? I don't understand who any of these people are supposed to be!" IMana Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04007963229816791984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-84874062315707842302010-02-16T20:06:01.398-05:002010-02-16T20:06:01.398-05:00Wow. Very good analysis! So much word.Wow. Very good analysis! So much word.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-45924801780085981042010-02-16T17:49:53.517-05:002010-02-16T17:49:53.517-05:00@damienroc and @Avalon's Willow, YES. (I mean,...@damienroc and @Avalon's Willow, YES. (I mean, in general YES about this whole post, because as usual it is right and true.) But specifically YES about this being how you create genre and how Recognition Glee isn't just about the good stuff. Epic fantasy means white damsels in swooshy dresses, white muscular heroes wielding scary swords, dark villain hordes, and this way the A:tLA producers (think they can) have their cake and eat it too. They'll get the Recognition Glee for the show off the costumes and the sets, but to get it for the genre, of course they need some white good guys and some dark, scary bad guys.<br /><br />Or so they think. I wish I thought they were wrong about the audience at large. Even if they are, it'll be added to the body of epic fantasy movies, and it'll just reinforce the tropes. Uggggh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-2677140604992574562010-02-16T16:52:30.287-05:002010-02-16T16:52:30.287-05:00It's like explaining fandom and racism in fand...It's like explaining fandom and racism in fandom IN ONE BLOW, down to the infantilization supported by keeping the old racist movie pulp tropes intact because the genre started out that way, and we haven't grown up enough as a culture to tease out the remnant bits outside of the No!Blackface! rule.cgeyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16760705749940311464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-18481014370061830682010-02-16T15:46:55.305-05:002010-02-16T15:46:55.305-05:00@bankeui
For them, being able to eat our foods or...<strong>@bankeui</strong><br /><br /><em>For them, being able to eat our foods or let (not "too many" of us) work in select fields = their benevolent open mindedness and "equality" as far as they can see it.</em><br /><br />So they're no longer called a __-lover for their Orientalist leanings and accquisitions and tastes or they're no longer called a ____-lover for liking soul food and jazz and the blues <em>therefore</em> equality must be here, pass the salsa.<br /><br />I'm so sad that you're so right.<br /><br />It especially explains all the surprise that raping non-white women is seen as rape these days too. But killing them is still ok - no one's going to be fussing too much to look for one of (them) their bodies, so there's a way around it.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-89355422344371323772010-02-16T15:39:55.869-05:002010-02-16T15:39:55.869-05:00I keep thinking of desegregation as a failure.
We...<i>I keep thinking of desegregation as a failure.</i><br /><br />Well, it got done the same way as the Reconstruction- sabotaged the whole way, then pointed to as proof of the impossibility of equality and our agency. <br /><br />For them, being able to eat our foods or let (not "too many" of us) work in select fields = their benevolent open mindedness and "equality" as far as they can see it. <br /><br />And then outrage that we demand more, that fractions of equality isn't equality still.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-47192475620200947652010-02-16T15:30:57.665-05:002010-02-16T15:30:57.665-05:00@glockgal
I'm glad you got something out of i...<strong>@glockgal</strong><br /><br />I'm glad you got something out of it. And yay for being linked at Racebending@LJ.<br /><br /><strong>@damienroc</strong><br /><br />I hadn't thought about Recognition Glee in terms of genre tropes and cliches, but it makes perfect sense in terms of how one <em>creates genre in the first place</em>.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-18445589626891962342010-02-16T15:28:40.846-05:002010-02-16T15:28:40.846-05:00@unusualmusic
I tend to avoid being linked at Rac...<strong>@unusualmusic</strong><br /><br />I tend to avoid being linked at Racialicious, because they tend to focus on Racism 101 (or at least they did when I asked to not be linked there anymore) and I'm not going to treat people coming over with any sort of kid gloves.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-87331256389322090052010-02-16T15:06:00.679-05:002010-02-16T15:06:00.679-05:00@Wysteria
I was reading a few people having the s...<strong>@Wysteria</strong><br /><br />I was reading a few people having the same kind of glee reaction, and feeling confused and/or embarassed by it. At first I was pissed myself because I am so <em>angry</em> about all that's happened. I even found myself thinking 'they have to be white'.<br /><br />But I got a moment of checking myself when I came upon those Star Trek: TNG reviews I mentioned above and realized it's not just the procasters who'll be feeling emotion with every trailer and poster. Those are <em>our</em> (Racebending.Com) epic A:TLA moments too - twisted and mangled as they may be. Those who can still feel some glee there, despite all the ick, and no, and OMG!Fail - that's the original love for the show.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-52174166498177971572010-02-16T14:48:44.045-05:002010-02-16T14:48:44.045-05:00I hadn't considered it in terms of recognition...I hadn't considered it in terms of recognition but that does fit a lot of the comments I've heard from people who are excited about the film. Even when I've pointed out the racial problems with the casting, they've tended to remain interested in seeing the film, because of those elements.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I don't even think it's just Recognition Glee for the TV series. I've seen many people comment that the trailer makes it feel epic in an LotR or Star Wars manner. So it's not even necessarily tied to being a fan of the TV series, just a series of tropes that people are familiar with in films.<br /><br /><br />I also had the odd question of someone asking if the "racial problems" were because of the Indian casting for the Fire Nation peeps, which is kinda a weird inverted way to look at it, like they're assuming some people won't see the film as a white enough change. Really disheartening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-30109847743275851602010-02-16T13:39:00.837-05:002010-02-16T13:39:00.837-05:00I like the name for it, "Recognition Glee.&qu...I like the name for it, "Recognition Glee." Though I am against the cast, I found myself having this same glee as I watched the new trailer. It really bites.<br /><br />Great post overall! Hollywood is so blinded by the popularity of the show that they can't see *why* the show is popular.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-67313724900647439652010-02-16T13:35:15.936-05:002010-02-16T13:35:15.936-05:00This is an amazing post; and right at the moment w...This is an amazing post; and right at the moment when I didn't think I could get anymore understanding/new insights into how Hollywood works and thinks.<br /><br />Thank you for that! I linked and quoted it over on the racebending LJ comm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-56521508467229668952010-02-16T12:47:35.051-05:002010-02-16T12:47:35.051-05:00THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. You should submit this t...THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. You should submit this to racebending and racialicious if you have the sporks. Linked you on Angry black woman as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-14235171546520188922010-02-16T11:27:42.428-05:002010-02-16T11:27:42.428-05:00@bankuei
Confirmation Bias. I hadn't heard th...<strong>@bankuei</strong><br /><br />Confirmation Bias. I hadn't heard that term before, I think. But it does fit very nicely. <em>"Something is because it is, because it is, because we say it is."</em><br /><br />I found myself thinking the same's been done with female leads as well, of course. But cohesive social justice would require seeing equal misrepresentation (based on those self made rules) and not failure of white women to measure up to white men. <br /><br />It's beginning to scare me (though I'm not quite sure why I'm scared) that I keep thinking of desegregation as a failure. And actually being from a predominately non-white nation and culture is only helping that idea of failure along.<br /><br />Of course A:TLA might never have been made & become so cross dynamically popular in an <em>officially</em> segregated US.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-18046957590312926572010-02-16T11:05:22.550-05:002010-02-16T11:05:22.550-05:00This. This. This.
The self fulfilling prophecy of...This. This. This.<br /><br />The self fulfilling prophecy of media reinforcing roles for us- they follow the very rules they themselves made and shrug their shoulders as if it were natural consequence - yet when pressed, they have excuses but no real reasons- "couldn't find any actors" yet if the role is sex dragon or kung fu extra, we can find thousands.<br /><br />I haven't watched the trailer because I refuse to put anymore energy into a foregone conclusion. The racists will play it both ways- if it does well, "See, asian people don't matter" and if it bombs, "See, no one wants to watch movies about OTHER cultures- we even put white people in and it bombed!"<br /><br />In either case, confirmation bias rules, and another "proof" has been made.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com