tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post299948238473429071..comments2023-03-21T05:49:21.694-04:00Comments on Seeking Avalon: A Conversation I WANT to have.Avalon's Willowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-62752957927429569952009-06-28T06:02:58.967-04:002009-06-28T06:02:58.967-04:00This is a conversation I want to have too.
Often,...This is a conversation I want to have too.<br /><br />Often, in "literary" fiction, the new "ethnicity" is hot (think of 'Kite Runner' or 'Half of a Yellow Sun'). I see this as the establishment sitting up and noticing that, 'Blimey, these people can write too'. What you'll find, though, is that these books are written with power and on their own terms. They don't necessarily follow the Western fiction formula. They tell the stories as they are told in their respective cultures.<br /><br />Being black African myself I was, as a young boy, confused by my first exposure to (translated) Japanese fiction because of the way the narrative might end in the middle of the story, or how the most important or visually stunning aspect occurs at any other part of the story except the third act. But I adjusted and came to enjoy it.<br /><br />In my tribe, for example, we have a culture of telling stories that the whole audience knows intimately, this familiarity with narrative being the point since the telling of stories has a pathic function rather than new information transfer. The telling is to keep the tribe together, to induce comfort in the knowledge that the world is as it was yesterday (sorry, veering into anthropology).<br /><br />My point is people of colour in speculative fiction have got to start telling their tales not as Western adaptations but in the mould which they would have used were they told in their native habitat. <br /><br />And, yes, I just made fiction out to be alive with habitat requirements, because that's what they are in my culture.<br /><br />My suggestion is not about the logistics of getting our stories out there (which is a real challenge to be dealt with by people more qualified than I). It is about maintaining the integrity of the stories.<br /><br />Don't write Chlorox versions of your culture.Icepickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08055884346817797269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-11630453884610713262009-04-28T14:40:00.000-04:002009-04-28T14:40:00.000-04:00It just seems weird to have Aang as white.
Aren't...It just seems weird to have Aang as white.<br /><br />Aren't they afraid of distancing themselves from the fan base?Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00219023897626648057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-85861738094516945292009-02-05T01:52:00.000-05:002009-02-05T01:52:00.000-05:00Avalon's Willow:Beautiful post on painful material...<B>Avalon's Willow:</B><BR/><BR/>Beautiful post on painful material. The metaphor is just too apt.<BR/><BR/>We (my personal 'we', white Americans) are a racist AND a consumerist society -- POC voices whether native or foreign are too often perceived not as speakers or authors, present on their own terms, but as objects of consumption, goods, present on our (white) 'purchasing' terms. That is still the fundamental stumbling block I really think: white consumers still just cannot see 'subject' instead of 'object.'<BR/><BR/>Or at least the creators and marketers of white-targeted culture don't THINK they can, and tailor their business accordingly, and as long as they consider this immutable truth, they perpetuate it.<BR/><BR/><B>Rosefox:</B><BR/><BR/>Thank you for the editor's and publisher's perspective...but I'm curious, does the small press arrangement you're speaking of mean that the small press gets to determine the tenor of their own marketing, or are they still beholden to how the distributor wants to spin it? I.e., do you have enough power to get around the trap of it being publicized as "only of interest to POC -- whites please ignore" or even "whites, read this because it is POC and therefore exotic or broadening or some crap -- oh yeah and it's good too"?<BR/><BR/>(NOT that having a successful small press with an exclusively or heavily POC customer base is not a great thing that could lead to even greater things. But then you're still in Separate but Equal land, and what if one wanted to break out of that final sandbox?)<BR/><BR/>My personal theory is that once the society accumulates a critical mass of undeniable hits that are a) POC-centered and b) beloved as stories, not as marks of enlightenment, then the barrier will be broken through probably for good. But I have no idea if that's right, nor am I sure what an action plan for achieving that would look like even if it was.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-33319805262407894322009-02-02T17:58:00.000-05:002009-02-02T17:58:00.000-05:00You go girl! (In my subculture, this is a phrase ...You go girl! (In my subculture, this is a phrase of respect. Just in case yours is different.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-12025608021695647662009-02-02T11:45:00.000-05:002009-02-02T11:45:00.000-05:00You're very welcome. I'm also getting into a simil...You're very welcome. I'm also getting into a similar discussion at <A HREF="http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/489875.html?view=2128531#t2128531" REL="nofollow">zvi_likes_tv's journal</A>, if you haven't seen that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-39823638257128580252009-02-01T23:32:00.000-05:002009-02-01T23:32:00.000-05:00Rosefox:Thank you very much for your comment and c...<STRONG>Rosefox:</STRONG><BR/><BR/>Thank you very much for your comment and contribution to the conversation. I'm going to go re-read it now (and possibly another three times).Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-12733819315728752672009-02-01T23:18:00.000-05:002009-02-01T23:18:00.000-05:00Hi there,I don't think we've interacted be...Hi there,<BR/><BR/>I don't think we've interacted before, but I've been following the spiraling racefail pretty avidly since its inception. I'm going to put my professional hat on here: I edit the SF/F/H and mass market book reviews sections for Publishers Weekly, and the latter section in particular gives me a decent overview of "mainstream" fiction, by which I mean mass market originals that come out from imprints of major publishers. With the exceptions of Kensington's Dafina and Brava imprints, pretty much everything I see is white white white white white. I'd love to see that change.<BR/><BR/>If you want to promote fiction writing by people of color--and I specify fiction only because I don't know a blessed thing about nonfiction publishing--there are certainly big downsides to being either an imprint of a big publisher (not much independent control, not much variety to what you publish) or a small independent press (not much money, hard to get anyone to notice you). There is, however, a third way.<BR/><BR/>What I would suggest is something that a couple of independent genre publishers have done with some success: approach a major publisher that doesn't have a PoC-oriented imprint and tell them that you want to form a small press with a targeted line and you'd like them to be your distributor. They don't have to shell out the money to buy you outright, and you get more autonomy than you would have as an imprint. Baen Books has an agreement like this with Simon & Schuster; Hard Case Crime has a similar one with Dorchester. By riding the coattails of a major press, you get their connections to bookstore buyers and their discount deals with printing presses and maybe even some access to their publicity departments, all without compromising your vision or your integrity.<BR/><BR/>If you decide to go the fully independent route, chat with the folks at South End Press about how they make it work; they've been around for a while and they know the drill. You could also put out a call on places like the MediaBistro bulletin board, requesting the input of non-white publishing professionals in determining the best way to aggressively open the publishing industry up to editors, publicists, artists, writers, and readers of all backgrounds.<BR/><BR/>I wish you the very best of luck with this. If this well-meaning white ally can offer any assistance, please let me know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-82806856459018101102009-02-01T20:48:00.000-05:002009-02-01T20:48:00.000-05:00My apologies. Since I'm American I tend to think i...My apologies. Since I'm American I tend to think in those terms. I know nothing about the publishing world in other countries, so I can only speak to my own. Certainly a similar discussion in other countries can only help their fiction as well.<BR/><BR/>Best wishes for your project.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-2179476205856419972009-02-01T12:44:00.000-05:002009-02-01T12:44:00.000-05:00kalima62:Not just American fiction. There are Non ...<STRONG>kalima62</STRONG>:<BR/><BR/>Not just American fiction. There are Non White Peoples who're British as well who have stories and tales and sagas. And between the two of them, we're still only talking about English Speaking countries.Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-73621912675576568562009-02-01T10:43:00.000-05:002009-02-01T10:43:00.000-05:00Absolutely love this post. It's making me think a ...Absolutely love this post. It's making me think a lot about the way I write, especially about the worldview of my characters. <BR/><BR/>These discussions SHOULD center POC as the default, because you know what? POC *are* the default. You are the majority of the world. There are more Chinese nationals than all the white people in the entire world (I'm estimating here). And that's just Chinese people.<BR/><BR/>As much as I love Tolkien, I'm really tired of the white idealized British medieval ripoffs posing as fantasy fiction. I want to read something else. <BR/><BR/>I think the market is out there. Mainstream publishing is always X number of years behind, in my view, trying to catch up. The fact that you're having this discussion and feeling empowered in this way from the things that have happened is incredibly exciting to me, because I see good things coming from it for American fiction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-5379086400886819202009-01-29T18:51:00.000-05:002009-01-29T18:51:00.000-05:00A data point for PoC publishing online is the John...A data point for PoC publishing online is the <A HREF="http://www.johndiesattheend.com/updates/?page_id=10" REL="nofollow">John Dies at the End, by David Wong</A> e-book. It started as a popular online novel, got printed by a small press, and is now being republished by a major publisher. The book is due out in late 2009. It also looks like there's going to be a movie. <BR/><BR/>And personally, I really want to have sf/f discussions that center PoC as the default. It doesn't even have to include me, as an Asian-American. For me, part of deprogramming against racism involves not centering white as the default, or as the measuring stick.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-9042421371341338552009-01-29T16:55:00.000-05:002009-01-29T16:55:00.000-05:00Just wanted to chime in and agree that the epublis...Just wanted to chime in and agree that the epublishing option might be worth considering. I know there's a market for erotica/romance, for example, and I'd love to see more fantasy/scifi epublishers.Carlanime Blighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01420384308005788971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-47501817631895120892009-01-28T19:53:00.000-05:002009-01-28T19:53:00.000-05:00magic realism, feminist fantsay fiction, erotica o...magic realism, feminist fantsay fiction, erotica of all sorts-- they are doing pretty well as etexts. I know people who are selling their own manga via subscription. I know of two different women who have created epublishing sites to cater to one tiny niche or another that was being ignored by the bigger publishers.<BR/><BR/> And readers of color is not a tiny niche!<BR/><BR/>yeah, think about epublishing!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-57658788094971675312009-01-28T14:22:00.000-05:002009-01-28T14:22:00.000-05:00I'd would like to join that conversation as wellI'd would like to join that conversation as wellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-34543427550981597602009-01-28T14:01:00.000-05:002009-01-28T14:01:00.000-05:00Good post.Good post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-47798989518568641542009-01-28T13:06:00.000-05:002009-01-28T13:06:00.000-05:00Have you heard about the current hottest theater t...Have you heard about the current hottest theater ticket in NYC, "The Shipment," written by playwright, Young Jean Lee, running at the Kitchen?<BR/><BR/><A>It is described, at leat by the <I>NY Times</I>, like this</A>:<BR/><BR/>[ "An Evening in Black and White From a Playwright Who Is Neither." ]<BR/><BR/>Love, C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-33487037096835949122009-01-28T12:31:00.000-05:002009-01-28T12:31:00.000-05:00I'm right there with you. I want us to get to the...I'm right there with you. I want us to get to the next phase and get to creating.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-44255340394965532042009-01-28T11:56:00.000-05:002009-01-28T11:56:00.000-05:00Yes. Thank you.Yes. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-6467886327823115402009-01-28T10:55:00.000-05:002009-01-28T10:55:00.000-05:00*whistles* Now this? This is...mindblowing for me....*whistles* Now this? This is...mindblowing for me. This? This conversation I want to have. This is... Wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-35534956259516920722009-01-28T10:31:00.000-05:002009-01-28T10:31:00.000-05:00DeepadCould you please repost? I'm not sure how I ...<STRONG>Deepad</STRONG><BR/><BR/>Could you please repost? I'm not sure how I managed it, but I pressed the wrong button. I'm totally sorry.<BR/><BR/><EM>deepad has left a new comment on your post "A Conversation I WANT to have.":<BR/><BR/>Thank you. This is the conversation I wish to have too. </EM>Avalon's Willowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539301720154191607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-66712997426038091942009-01-28T10:08:00.000-05:002009-01-28T10:08:00.000-05:00AmenAmenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4506995090336963455.post-78217317660570422882009-01-28T10:00:00.000-05:002009-01-28T10:00:00.000-05:00I wonder at your comments about small presses. A ...I wonder at your comments about small presses. A friend of mine has started making a significant chunk of money writing erotica and having it published as e-books.<BR/><BR/>It's not, as I understand it, cheaper than a physical book, because one still needs to pay an editor, a web designer, a cover artist, advertising costs, and the like. But it seems <I>doable</I>. There are certainly models to follow.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if that's the answer, but when you brought up small presses, that's what came to mind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com